Horizon, 08/01/1998

From: Phil Curnow, phil.curnow@bbsrc.ac.uk on 09 January 1998 at 13:11

Did anyone else watch this programme last night?

It seems to me that the States did the same thing with exhaust emmisions as they did with car safety features.

One minute they ignore all the new things that engineers are coming up with, the next you drive a car that turns in a scale modle of the Hinderberg if you have a 5mph crash as the airbags deploy...

One year they are building V8 with a larger capacity than my bedroom, the next they are crippling nice little four pots like our beloved MG's, and you can't get a RV8 into the place for love nor money...

But don't worry it's still the land of the free, 'cos you can buy a gun over the counter. After all it's and infrigment of your civil liberties, not be able to shoot someone...

A strange, strange country...

From: Darren, Northants on 09 January 1998 at 14:25

Some might say its an infringement of your civil liberties if your neighbour is allowed a gun?

(Does the right to bare arms mean they can wear t-shirts?)

From: Stefanie - Arkansas -- dumboldgirl@hotmail.com on 09 January 1998 at 14:41

I hope someone could give a synopsis of the show for those of us who didn't/couldn't see it.

From: H.P. Berger, Rutland, VT USA on 09 January 1998 at 15:38

I'd be the last to defend much of the government-mandated nonsense which has been adopted here in the name of safety or the environment. I would, however, suggest that outright banning of firearms leaves only those willing to break the law in possesion of them. As one bumpersticker puts it, "When Guns Are Outlawed Only Outlaws Will Own Guns". I,for one, don't find that a particularly comforting prospect, but I'm not a burglar, robber or mugger.... I could point out the irony of the UK, which sought and received donated firearms from the US for home defense when invasion seemed imminent, essentially outlawing and confiscating for destruction some of those same weapons. Well, actually, I just did. Might I suggest we get back to auto-related topics, lest we next find a thread on politics or religion? Regards, h.

From: Pat bailey Lancaster CA pbailey@qnet.com on 09 January 1998 at 17:28

We have always been a country that over reacts to things and we seem to have people in power that jump on band wagons without full seeing the impact of their actions.We have people that want "social engineering"
Yesterday I took my family down to see Toy story on Ice in Long Beach,since I had more than 2 people in the car, I got to drive in the car pool lane while everyone else was bogged down in the other 3 lanes,the ratio looked to be 100:1 cars in the regular lanes compaired to the ones in the car pool lane.This is "social engineering"THEY are trying to get people to car pool and will "reward "you if you do and "penalize" you if you don't.Wouldn't it make more sense to open up ALL the lanes and let the traffic flow better?But this doesn't fit in the powers that be mind set.Goddammit you should be car pooling no matter how inconvienent or else!
This mind set slops over to all the stupid regs on our cars,air bags oversized bumpers etc The sad thing is apart from a few enthusiasts nobody gives a hoot,so we can't have RV8s big engines smog free MGs even though the impact would be miniscule at best.
LBC content ....While we were driving around Long Beach I found a dealer that sold Lotus(Lotuses??) and even had som 4 door avantis!!
Pat

From: General George Washington, Mount Vernon prez@valley.forge on 10 January 1998 at 4:54

Hey listen jerky we kicked your ass once, now do I have to come across the pond and do it again?
But I do agree that guns should be illegal here in the states
But back to the real issue here.

I have this MGTD and.................
As the guys from motor head say,

World peace through British Cars!

From: Philip Morgan padre@howenet.com on 10 January 1998 at 18:24

Did somebody mention religion?
"And they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks."
Now about that MG.......

Regards Padre

From: James Hesser jbeecher@sanasys.com on 11 January 1998 at 2:25

Handguns are cool!!!! British cars are cool!!!!! British cars and handguns???? Twice as cool!!!
You'll find the windscreen makes an excellent rest to increase your accuracy. Remember to *squeeze* your shots.
Automatics are better than wheelguns, but rotate through your extra magazines so as to avoid decrease in cycle time from wuss magazine springs.
It's great watching a car-jacker drive away only to find your car's alarm has just disabled him well beyond the effective range of the "Saturday night special" he used to steal it.
As he steps out of your sportscar, he's easy pickings with your handgun. I'm all for defending your real property with deadly force.
Swords to ploughshares? There's less than 2 1/2 inches of top soil left. I think the government can worry a lot less about automobiles and citizens with handguns.
When a government with an armed police force can't trust it's own citizens with the same arms there's something wrong.
When police here in rural Iowa can start pulling an H and K MP-9 machine pistol out of the trunk of their squad car it's time to shut ones mouth about banning guns for ordinary law abiding citizens.
How long does it take to get a response from law enforcement where you live?? 10 minutes ? 25? The average is 17 minutes. Now you think about this. If law enforcement needs state of the art military design fully automatic weapons to protect themselves, what chance do you stand with nothing but a telephone and a twenty minute response time.
Bear in mind that the police are in no way legaly obligated to respond to any call for help. Failure of the police to come save you in no way allows you any right to sue for damages or lost property.
That's right police don't have to help you they can flat out refuse. If your wife were shot ten times in the chest because the police never came to your aid, there's nothing you can do about it.
Automatic weapons were made illegal some time ago, yet criminals still seem to have them. Now the police do too. Only honest law abiding citizens are without them.
It's sad but in most places here in the US if a criminal points a gun at you, statisticaly speaking, you are going to die.
Another sad thing statisticaly speaking, the criminal isn't.
And now for those of you wondering what this has to do with MGs? Your driving around in a car that attracts a lot of attention.
When it's time for a Crip, Blood, or El Rucan, to randomly select somebody to execute for gang initiation, who do you think makes a more tempting target?
I'm sorry, but in a society where the criminals behave more like diseased animals than human beings, it's time to start treating them like the pieces of garbage they are.
People everyday in this country are attacked by criminals, some just for the kind of car they were driving.
I wouldn't dream of keeping a gun out of the hands of people with no criminal record. Just like I wouldn't dream of keeping a British car out of the garage of somebody that could take care of it.
But we have a government that thinks differently.

From: Gerry in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 11 January 1998 at 4:18

Unfortunately, the argument re banning guns misses a point--the proliferation of handguns is what gave the gangs etc more power and more lethality (it's a hell of a lot easier to kill somebody when you do it from a distance--when gang fights used knives and car antennae and baseball bats--although more brutal and violent in some ways, the issue of killing them and seeing them die close up in front of you became distasteful). Furthermore, the higher power guns the gangs and thugs have the greater the need for the police to have high power weapondry. Much as the bigger the engine of your neighbor's car, the greater the need for you to do a V-8 conversion.

Which reminds me--a kid came up to me and said about my B--what a great car. How fast does it go. I said it does highway speeds well. But there was a history and a panache to the car that was more important than its muscle. He didn't get it. It's the quantity over quality argument--the ease over the work (the Miata vs the MGB) and Americans often choosing the easy out that makes this place an odd country....

(Did I adequately connect this dialogue to MGs?)
--Gerry

From: Phil Curnow, phil.curnow@bbsrc.ac.uk on 12 January 1998 at 13:10

Interesting points, it does seem that there is a binary on/off response to many things in the US that was the point I was trying to make. Beleive it or not is was a car point, I wasn't trying to get on a soap box as to whether James ought to be using his windscreen to improve his aim!

By the way, don't discharges from the propellent in the cartridge take the shine off your bonnet?

The programme for all you who missed it basically out-lined the disparity in history of car safety legislation and car safety technology, and the public's attitudes to both.

It gave some startling figures and I hope I can remember these accuractly, but some of them were that the first fatality from a auto accident was about 100 years ago, since then cars have been responsible for about 20million deaths.
20million!!! Thats a third of the current population of the UK, and getting on for 1:10 Americans!

The idea that engineers in the States invented the airbag many years ago, but it wasn't until the mid-eighties that Mercedes actually sold a car with them.

Other things like engineering doors that stay shut in an accident, combined with three point belts to stop you being thrown out of the car or through the plate glass screen.

They also detailed that many of the pioneers of this technology had to use second hand cadavers from medical schools to investigate how and when bones break the the way that bodies move and react in a crash situation, but actually used themsleves for many of the studies of internal organs and compression.

One interesting point was that there are three sets of collision in and accident.

1) Cars collide...
2) Passengers hit car fittings/fixtures...
3) Passengers internal organs hit inside front of ribs etc..

Apparently a young and maverick lawyer fresh from college took on the car giants after he found publication of "things enginners had invented to help you survive a crash that weren't in current use saving lives"

It tailed off with a discussion that now we have survivors in crashes and this has lead to whole new fields of medicine, helping these people and the development of the crash test dummy, not a Canadian rocker but the real thing, and how the current need is for a realistic child model, but the only way to get the data is to start with corpses of children and extrapolate which most people, including the researchers find repugnant.

So that's it...

To reitirate my initial point, it is strange the way the policy makers in the US make such sweeping changes to areas of the lives of the people they represent, they do it so qucikly and whole-heartedly that sometimes it may seem that they are in fact "penalising" those people. Yet it is the land of the free?

I like my rubber bumpered B, this is where the argument comes in with cars, yet many things about it looks where so dictated buy the American market. This is quite right, as they estimated somewhere I think that 3 out of every 5 B's ended up Stateside, but they altered the ride, the height the looks and the output. But I bet you could still by a LARGE V8 built in Detriot that emitted twice as much and its Auto box wasn't exactly built for fuel efficiency.

As I said a strange, strange place.

As I'm this side of the pond with my opinions, I'll just say in a style often seen on this board,

That's only my 2p worth, to provoke discussion and not offend,

Phil.

PS On Darrens point, doesn't the constitution actually say that you are allowed to bear arms "if you are a member of a local militia", thereby preventing serfdom under powerful landlords. You could form a militia and have a good old up-rising? While wearing t-shirts?

From: H.P.Berger, Rutland, VT USA on 12 January 1998 at 14:18

Actually, the Constitution says: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." And, in point of fact, it's long been illegal for convicted felons to own or possess firearms, or for any civilian (with limited exceptions and with special permit) to have full-automatic firearms. More to the point (perhaps- the same State nannyism which has given us many of the rules, regulations and statutes we decry as owners of LBC's is behind efforts to disarm the honest citizen), the strangling of the B was purportedly for clean air. As for whacking big V8's, take a look at the so-called SUV's wallowing around the roads, going through gas like s..t through a tin horn. But their emissions are low.. AARGH!!
Support the right to arm bears.

From: Stefanie, Arkansas - dumboldgirl@hotmail.com on 12 January 1998 at 14:33

Thanks for detailing the show's topic. I see that this subject has opened up a can of worms. But, back to the main topic: I saw a program on the Discovery Channel or the Learning Channel the other night about the use of cadavers in car crash tests. I could only watch for a few minutes. Normally, I'm not squeamish (I'm a mother, after all - and majored in biology in college) but this was stomach-turning. When I initially flipped over to the station that was showing this, I was unaware that the "crash test dummies" were cadavers - I just thought they were the standard dummies! Now, to the handgun issue: I don't know ANYONE who doesn't own a gun. Scary, huh? And, no, none of them are members of a "militia", to my knowledge.

From: Kevin Rank, Silver Spring, MD, USA on 12 January 1998 at 15:09

Phil-

You raise interesting points, and certainly I would not disagree with them. In theory, the United States government was founded so that individuals would have a voice, and so that the representatives of the people would represent their constituents' views.

Unfortunately, we have the opposite. Special interest groups wielding large amounts of influence (i.e. money) get these politicians to vote the way they (the interest groups) would like them to vote. What winds up happening is that certain policies or laws are passed that help the interest groups, but are not necessarily in the best interests of the people.

I believe that this is the total opposite of what the Framers of the Constitution had in mind, and frankly, could be argued to be totally undemocratic.

The way for people to change this, of course, is to vote these politicans out of office, but unfortunately, most Americans are largely ignorant or apathetic of politics, or don't take the time to study and understand the issues, and so these 'representatives' tend to stay in office for a long time and things continue on the same path.

I find that Billy Bragg's song "Ideology," while clearly about the UK, also addresses our situation here:

"When one voice rules the nation
Just because they're top of the pile
Doesn't mean their vision is the clearest

The voices of the people
Are falling on deaf ears
Our politicians all become careerists"

He said a mouthful!!

Oh, sorry, I need an MG connection here...er...I frequently listen to Billy Bragg while driving my B GT!

Kevin

From: James Hesser jbeecher@sanasys.com on 12 January 1998 at 22:58

People with cars tend to be the biggest autonomous consumers on the planet.
In an age where everyone really starts to feel the "law of scarcity". People with automobiles also tend to get the best medical care possible, thus prolonging their life even further.
I'm all for fatal traffic "accidents", and I wish more of them were fatal. On a planet where technology has prolonged human life so by curing disease and war as we knew it is gone, how else are people supposed to die?
"Natural causes" doesn't kill enough people fast enough.
Oh sure we could eliminate traffic fatality. But what would happen. If you let any animal, even people, overpopulate an eco-system, nature always finds a more brutal way to correct things.
Don't get me wrong I think with technology where it is this planet could adequetely support it's population. But the population just keeps growing.
Am I saying if people stop dying an ebola like plague will probably wipe out a good portion of humanity? Yeah pretty much.
In an age where people are packed like cows in all the big cities and modern medicine starts to fail, disater is already brewing. Yep medicine has stopped working, in case you hadn't noticed the new diseases on the scene or the resurgenece of diseases once thought to be eliminated.
It's said that the poorer, "disadvantaged" people end up getting nailed by all this stuff first.
On a planet where the rescources are limited, it's nice to have something that kills the planet's biggest autonomous consumers.
Yes, traffic accidents kill the people at the top of the pile, no question about it.
Sad thing is fatalities are going down. Why is that sad? Well while fatalities are on the decline, serious injury is on the rise.
That means we are paying more on insurance costs to "heal" those injured in accidents. If you have an insurance policy, you're one of the nice people paying for it all in higher premium payments. (Soon insurance will be "mandatory" for everyone"
Back, in say the 60s, remeber how cheap insurance was? That's because the state police put people in bags instead of ambulances, there were no medical costs on dead people.
Is that a morbid thing to say? Probably. Is it the truth? Yes. Let's look at all these new safety devices on cars. They add (what is it up to now?), last I read, 3,700 dollars to the cost of a car.
We live in a world where,and I hate this part,everything costs money. If there were less people, things would cost less money.
The government is last to admit this, but all this safety initative has cost money, your money. Nobody ever steps back and looks at the big picture anymore.
Tell ya what do me a favor, please? When you get your paycheck this week, take a look at it. Where it says federal and state taxes withheld to date (You'll be doing this soon enough anyway) look at the amount it says.
Now I want you to imagine 3/4 of that money ended up going home with you and anything you would want to buy is 15 percent cheaper. What would you have spent all that money on?
For some of you it's enough to buy another MGB isn't it? OK now imagine that amount for the last ten years. College for all the kids? 20 years. A nicer house?
Bear in mind that was "your" money. You earned it through your own toil. Then, the government took it away from you.
Is it mean to say "let people die in car crashes"? It probably is, but shouldn't it have been your choice to do so?
I think society is a lot like your MGB. If things are broke and not tended to right away, then it can all get nasty rather quickly.

From: Gerry in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 13 January 1998 at 1:02

Well, perhaps I'm in the minority here, but I don't mind paying my taxes--and I pay quite enough of them. However, it's good to know that the money goes to certain things I believe in (money to the arts, social security--at least for now--,education, federal roads, disaster relief). Would I like more money to go home with me. yes. Would I like some sort of net to catch me if the crap should ever hit the propellers. YES.
As for the issue of car safety--I think the Tucker story is quite the tale. And on a personal note, let's not forget when Tucker put seat belts in a car it was radical. Now it's common place. And without seatblets, when the car struck his mother's car in the driver's side door at 55 and he was still in the womb, my son would never have been born. Everyday, I'm glad for seatbelts, cause everyday I'm glad he's here.

From: Dwight Dallas mgv8@swbell.net on 13 January 1998 at 2:00

Blah blah blah.Blah blah.Blah blah blah.Blah. GUNS. Blah blah blah. Blah blah. Blah blah blah. Blah blah. TAXES. Blah blah blah. Blah. INDIGENTS.Blah blah blah.RUBBER BUMPERS.Blah blah.FREEDOM.Blah blah. Blah blah.MG V8s.

Blah Blah. Dwight

From: Pat Bailey pbailey@qnet.com Lancaster CA on 13 January 1998 at 4:58

I'm sure you are glad for seatbelts but why notmake them available for those who want them? not make them mandatory and give you a ticket if you don't want to wear them. As evidenced by the poor showing of the EV1 no one wants electric cars BUT they will be mandated on us eventually by the same people who have mandated seat belts,air bags,rubber bumpers and all the rest of the stuff that makes having a car too expensive and troublesome. As for the guy with his BLAH BLAHs don't read this post if you don't like it or have anything to contribute
Thats why we have 2 MG areas!
Pat

From: Darren, Northants on 13 January 1998 at 9:55

I doubt electric cars will be mandatory: they are much less efficient than petrol cars. And they arguably pollute more. Petrol is sucked from the sea, processed, pumped to garages and then burned by engines that are about 25 per cent efficient.

Electric cars have oil sucked out of the sea, (or radioactive materials), which are processed, burned, and used to make electricity. The electricity is zapped to your house, then stuffed into a battery, then converted into forward motion. I did the sums once, I think if you ignore the bt about digging stuff out the ground, then electric cars are about 10% efficient, petrol cars about twice that.

And power stations pollute, so electricity isn't that green. It just doesn't pollute towns, and makes the countryside more scummy. Towns are the place for dirt, leave what's left of the green bits alone.

Maybe they can develop a car that runs on vitriol?

From: Gerry in Grayling; lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 13 January 1998 at 12:41

Unfortunately,Pat, making seatbelts arbitrary (I agree with you about rubber bumpers and airbags though--I've been in several accidents without airbags and have walked away fine. I have a chrome bumper MGB....) is that most of the dumbasses I know would say cool--I won't get 'em....And then drive into a tree and die. Perhaps this would be a bizarre example of natural selection (the dumbest die--great concept, as a professor it would make my job easier), but odds are they'd hit some smart person driving with his seatbelt on and....
I don't believe you should be able to be pulled over strictly for a seatbelt violation....
What are your sentiments regarding drunk driving laws?
--Gerry

From: Richard Smith, New Orleans, richsmit@ix.netcom.com on 13 January 1998 at 14:42

In the face of all the statistics on seat belts (NOT airbags) I cannot even comprehend why EVERYBODY hasn't figured out that seat belts are really cool and neat. Can someone help with this? Is it a) pride, b) the government shouldn't tell me what to do, or c) some kind of macho or feminist thing?

If everyone simply opened their eyes to the main purpose of seat belts and concentrated on the main issue (duh! I like being alive and I don't want to be dead) instead of using other reasons which are really irelevant, there would be no need to make them mandatory because everybody would use them out of common sense.

From: Stefanie - Arkansas - dumboldgirl@hotmail.com on 13 January 1998 at 15:03

Let's see... Why do I wear my seatbelt in my current car (a 95 Thunderbird)??? Because my 7-year-old daughter tells me to. She has NEVER ridden in a car, unrestrained.

Why didn't I wear my seatbelt when I owned my 79 MGB? Two reasons: I was 18 when I got it (uncool to wear one PLUS at 18 aren't we all immortal?) AND I would roll a car before I hit something head-on. Ergo: the only chance you have to make it out of a rollover in a convertible without a rollbar is to be thrown out. I know the odds are against surviving being ejected from a car, but I believe the odds are better for surviving an ejection than they are when your head is used as a rollbar! Once again, this is just my opinion, and I know there are thousands out there who would disagree with me.

From: Paul Kile, Fair Oaks, CA on 13 January 1998 at 15:03

James H attacks the wrong end of the problem. He advocates (albeit with tongue in cheek) using car accidents as a form of "post natal birth control" for the upper consumers.

The REAL problem is just too many people. Why is it that no one ever seems to remember that fact? Our lifestyles are slowly being eroded, with subtle little ads and campaigns to get us used to the changes. It's good for the environment, It's "green", It's the right thing to do....etc.

I work in the hazardous waste management field, and back in the 1980s the most common methods of dealing with wastes were "end of pipe" methods. Figure out what to do with the waste after it's already been generated. Along about 1988 came the first US laws that advocated "waste minimization", a much more logical approach. Instead of trying to figure out what to do with the waste after we're stuck with it, why not try to reduce the amount generated in the first place? Proactive is good.

Why not look at population the same way, instead of trying to chip away at our lifestyles to allow for an ever burgeoning glut of people, let's practice "people minimization" at the source!

(I can feel the flames already, as all the God-fearing right to lifers are screaming BLASPHEMER!) Don't worry, family types. My views are in the minority, with very little chance of success.

Cheers, Paul Kile
(No kids, three stray neutered cats, and proud of it)

From: pat bailey lancaster Ca pbailey@qnet.com on 13 January 1998 at 15:36

Drunk driving is an entirely different matter,I think they should only have 3 penalties for drunk driving 1:drive drunk go to jail for 1 year 2:injure someone while driving drunk,life imprisonment 3:kill some one while drunk death penalty! No plea bargains or anything I guarantee if we put these 3 simple penalties in force drunk driving would be a thing of the past.We should have ZERO tolerance for drunk drivers or anyone else breaking laws while driving.If we would crack down on the offenders and incompetant drivers the rest of us could be left alone. Maybe we should have driving schools on Hi school that actaully teaches someone to drive,but the trend seems to be putting you in a safe cacoon on an automatic road and letting us just be passengers.My Dad never had car insurance and guess what?He never had a wreck I think the mind set today is it doesn't matter if I get in a wreck I'm safe and I got insurance!I wear seatbelts but by choice not intimidation.
Pat

From: James Hesser jbeecher@sanasys.com on 13 January 1998 at 23:34

I'd be all for better population control, but thinks to orginized religion that's never going to happen. People have no natural predators. They've virtualy eliminated disease.
Yes I'm against the government telling people what to do, when in the long run analysis, it costs more than it's worth.
I'm sorry but I don't like paying my taxes. Why? Well as if the 7 percent on everything I buy isn't enough, some idiot came up with "income tax". I think sales tax is a novel idea. Sales tax was how the founding fathers intended for the government to be run.
It was a brilliant idea. If the economy was good and more goods were being sold, there could be more government (more promotion of commerce). If sales on goods declined,the government had less money to work with. Had you proposed 35 percent "income tax" to Thomas Jefferson, he'd have surely slapped you upside the head.
In strict economic terms the government is supposed to provide services in exchange for the money you give it. Not only do they do a poor job of it, they deficit spend at an obscene rate.
If you were in a resturant that was run so poorly you'd get up and walk out. But when you're at, say a driver's license facility or one of these smog check stations, you don't have a choice.
Most of the population has been duped into believing "America is free, if you don't like it move to Russia".
That's really not an effective argument. Each year the government falls deeper in love with socialism, and we lose a little more of the freedom we have come to expect.
Have you ever heard a cop say "driving is a privelage not a right". If that is the case why do the people not driving still have the privelage of paying for traffic police, and highway construction/maintainence?
You, know if the government were to say "we own everything and everybody", and they already act as though they do, with the exception of a better standard of living, there'd be no difference between here and a communist country.
I've always belived people should have a choice. I always support a person's right to make choices, even if they are "bad", "stupid", "moronic", or not the "right" ones. Even if it means they hit an oak tree and die? Yes, freedom is that important, even if some people make the wrong choices with it and hurt themselves or other people.
That brings me to my next point. What do I want a government to do for me? Well the first two big things have always got to be, provide for the defense of the nation and regulate commerce.
Well I'd have to say the government is doing an OK job of providing for defense of the nation, after all Canada and Mexico haven't tried to invade us yet. Are the regulating commerce. They certainly try to and end up messing things up very badly. The first thing they should do is determine ownership of property through law. Problem is the government doesn't even have each state doing this the same way and it's very messy at best. (Try selling some real property some time and see just how ugly it all can get).
When you start out with such a tenuous hold on what is yours, you'd think things would then get simple. They don't. To resolve disputes they use an archaic court system saying "it's all we've got". To compound the matter, property resolution is given a back seat in this system to cases like "Your dog took a dump in my flowerbed".
In situations that require immediate resolution to "promote" commerce, you can expect to see about a four to five year wait. Now that you have the system allready faultering so dangerously, some politicians have gotten the notion they can "regulate commerce" at the same time. They've screwed up so badly with this over the years that they were forced to "deregulate" some industries .
Well to be honest that's the bare minimum a government has to do. History teaches us if you mess up either of those two things you are doomed to fail at some point. To compound matters, we've come to expect a little bit of service out of these fat cats in Washington. I think most people would like their civil liberties defended along with the rights they were granted. I'm all for that!
We've made the government responsible for the infrastructure. Next time you drive to work and feel the potholes, ask yourself if they are doing an acceptable job. Most places the infrastructure has been neglected and over used.
OK so they aren't protecting our liberty to well and they've screwed up on the infrastructure. What about education, we let them handle education? Are your high school aged children going to be graduating with calculus? Didn't think so.
This is the way it is; you have paid these people money in exchange for the services I just mentioned. They have failed to provide all but one of them to an acceptable standard. If they were employees that worked for you, you'd fire them on the spot. Hey wait a minute, they're supposed to be your employees, at work for you.
I'm sorry but when people can't do an acceptable job with the tasks and responsibilitie

From: Patrick, London on 14 January 1998 at 1:18

Is this tread getting wierd or is it me?

What started out as a discussion about an English TV programme on car safety development has drifted via guns are the mark of civilisation, to America is just a rich communist state. The prize for the most illogical idea must to the suggestion that executing drunk drivers would solve the drink driving problem.

Was this a suggestion from a resident of the country with the highest proportion of its citizens in jail and the same country with the highest level of executions of those prisoners and the same country with the worst crime problem in the western world? I think it was! Well if it worked so well on the crime picture, I am sure it will work equally well on the drunks.

It is times like this that you believe God had a purpose when he made the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans so wide. But on the other hand it worries me that I have something in common with these people in a shared affection for the MG.

Here ends the flame!

Good night American allies.

From: Pat bailey Lancaster Ca pbailey@qnet.com on 14 January 1998 at 3:06

Well said Hesser!!
What I said is if you kill someone while driving drunk you should be executed.
The reason the death penalty doesn't work is because it really isn't enforced, most of them sit on death row for years also criminals get out after 1/2 their sentence.
California started some tougher drunk driving rules a few years ago and it was all over the media and guess what?Drunk driving went down for a while but once the spotlight was off it's gone back up,I bet if every night the nightly news had a report of another drunk driver being fried it would come to a screeching halt!What we need is to leave the law abiding citizen alone and crack down on the criminals.
But I guess we can coddle them and have to drive around in a drunk proof car just in case we get hit!
Now for the statement that driving is a priviledge not a right,I think by now it SHOULD be a right.Isn't there a law that if I walk across your property for many years after a while it becomes legal? Well after 100 years of using cars and our society based on the car it could now be argued that
it is almost impossible to live without a car especially in LA!
This is not to say you wouldn't have to obey traffic laws. Just food for thought.
Pat

From: Gerry in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 14 January 1998 at 3:06

James, I would, of course, prefer to be able to mandate where my taxes go (30% to education, 30% to public support of the arts, etc)--until I have that opportunity I will have to accept the flawed system that we have. We DO pay less taxes than citizens of most other countries, and we have a greater standard of living. As for the education level--we've piled more kids in the classes, asked teachers to be parents, friends, councilors, and spies. Public education was a great idea when you had twelve kids in the classroom--you could actually monitor standards and give tests and essays that required effective critical and creative thinking rather than bubble sheet regurgitation....
As for drunk drivers. Although I wouldn't say kill 'em I would say that stripping them of the ability to ever drive again sounds good to me.
As for over population. I'm a believer in ZPG. One kid--my replacement.
As for our high incarceration rate--America spends way too much time sweating the little shit and not worrying about the big crap-- that's why we have a lot of useless laws (anybody hear about the town in Texas that thought HELLO was a bad greeting because it had the word HELL in it. SO theymandated it be struck from the town's language and be replaced by HEAVENO. I kid you not.) But I do believe in Seatbelts (or better yet--I used to drive a shelby Sunbeam Tiger with racing harnesses!) and mufflers and other safety features--but an ounce of prevention is worth a shitload of compensation and litigation.
Peace,
--G

From: Stefanie - Arkansas, dumboldgirl@hotmail.com on 14 January 1998 at 14:46

The can of worms has exploded, huh? I'll add my $.02 worth about taxes: After living overseas for 1 year, 2 months, and 23 days, I understand that I have to pay taxes to live in this country of ours. While our judicial system is sometimes lacking in the way we deal with criminals, there are many times when justice is served - sometimes even quickly. However, as is the case in most of the things that occur daily, you often only hear about the negative outcomes. For example, if you receive bad service from a business, you are likely to tell between 10 and 20 people about it. If you receive good service, you are likely to tell only 3 people.

And, on the topic of drunk drivers, there are penalties in place to strip those drivers of their licenses. BUT...since when has the lack of a license stopped anyone from driving? People just jump in a car and go, with the idea that they won't get caught. Also, these individuals can get a "hardship" license, where they are supposedly only allowed to drive to work. Yeah, right! The death penalty for drunk driving sounds good to me. It seems that this would help with natural selection process by taking the stupid ones out of the loop sooner than if we all just wait around for them to self-destruct & hopefully not take innocent bystanders with them!

Let's see...to have a connection with MGB's: I used to pay property tax on my B and I paid sales tax on it when I bought it.

From: James Hesser jbeecher@sanasys.com on 14 January 1998 at 15:46

That would be an unconstitutional double taxation. You can't be charged a sales tax at the time of sale and the property be considered merchandise, then have the bastards turn around and tell you it's real property subject to property tax.
It would be intresting to know what sate is scamming people like this.
I love how in England they buy parts to put the car back into the shape it was when they bought it, you know to make the damn car driveable still, and then they get gouged Value Added Tax?
What the hell is up with that? If your exhaust falls off and you buy another one you didn't add value. You simply kept the car from devaluing. You know sitting in the driveway with no exhaust it's about worthless.
Suddenly you fix it and the car is worth something more?
See the scam a government can get away with once they get your guns?
I'll bet if angry car owners in the UK had handguns they'd have told parliment what it could do with VAT.
Damn when somebody over there restores a Brit. Car you know they are 20 percent more commited. They have to be; there's that much tax on the restoration pieces.

From: K Hawkins Yellowknife k_hawkins@gov.nt.ca on 14 January 1998 at 18:30

This thread seems to have a number of issues floating.

I have to agree that it is way past time that we started executing Drunk Drivers. (They don't even make good organ donors). My local radio news just had a bulletin that city crews would be working all day to clear a street where an Impaired Driver broke a fire hydrant. It being -40 degrees last night the entire street is mounds of ice. More of my property taxes gone to waste.

Seat belts since having become mandatory have decreased the number of suitable organ donors considerably. If for whatever reason you don't want to wear the belt, sign the card.

Gun registration, something the Govt of Canada has decided is life or death (Sic). Now I will have to register the .57 Snyder rifle my great grand father brought home from some British adventure in South Africa in the 1860's. I cannot will this to my son.

Not to beat on you Americans (although HP BERGER and his derogatory drivel on SUV's needs some help) but what is more harmful to enjoyment of life in LA, guns or leaf blowers?

Is this relevant to MGB's? You bet, it is too cold even with heat in the garage to work on my B.

From: Darren, Northants on 15 January 1998 at 9:26

Value Added tax actually means a tax on the value of the product you are buying, it's nothing to do with 'adding value' to a product.

I actually think it's a fair tax, same as income tax.

From: Phil Curnow, phil.curnow@bbsrc.ac.uk on 15 January 1998 at 12:12

Wow!!!

All because I mentioned "the land of the free"...

VAT isn't that fair a tax as purchase taxes hit the poorest in society harder, but no taxation system is fair. The UK really needs to look at the way it deals with taxes because at the moment the system is so full of add ons and bolted on bits that it really is stuffed.

Income tax is about the fairest, but that penalises sucess. VAT is fair, but hits the poor harder.

The there are the wacky taxes we have, 1% of house purchase price on houses over UKP60,000 (Stamp duty)

Inheritance tax has been fiddled so many times its unbeleivible, but in the UK if you are worth more than about UKP130,000 you get hit, and hit hard. Your dead for God's sake, why should you be taxed?

Companies here can back date tax on profits to other companies in their group. That is they could make millions on a year and have a branch they deliberatly run at a loss. They can the match the profits for this year against that loss for a couple of years and avoid tax. I guess that there is a fine line between tax avoidance and evasion.

The 17.5% that we pay is lidicrous 'cos its on everything. Parts and labour for the B, even on its purchase if you don't buy it privately...

It was 15% up until the last government increased it as a "temporary" measure to offset a reduction in local taxation. Anyone in the States heard of the fiasco called the Community Charge? or Poll Tax? They wacked 2.5% on, and nobody has ever taken in off...

Then again income tax in this country was a temporary measure to finance the Napolionic wars. 1 penny in the pound, in the days when there were 12 pennys to a shilling and 20 shillings to the pound, so it was 1/240th!

Then there's indirect taxes. Student loans are coming in over here where we supposedly have a free education system. maintainace grants have been cut year on year and "means-tested" ie a fraction of the maximum doled out dependant on your parents income/wealth/responsibilities when I was a student a few years ago they were talking about introducing a graduate tax, an additional 2p onto of your income tax if you were a University graduate. Now with loans they charge you each month against loans that you had to take when you were at Uni, taxation? I think so. I know everyone Stateside is going to say but we have that system anyway, but our taxes are still paying for the old system too!!! My parents taxes more than covered my education through to the end of my PhD, and I will always earn more than average, so I have to pay twice for an education I had once, plus my parents contribution while I was there and on top of that the cash they had to give me so I could live while at University. Free education...

Now to a car connection...

The latest scam is to charge crash victims medical bills to the insurance companies, with our "free" NHS. So they will be part funded by the insuracne companies... Who gives them enough money as it is? Me. Who pays tax and more importantly National Insurance for this? Me. That is the ultimate in indirect taxes...

Another car point?

I couldn't beleive how much petrol cost in the States.
I was in Knoxville, TN July 1996.
What is the current average per US gallon?
I would say here the average price for fuel here is about 64p per litre! At about 3.8 litres to a US gallon you do the sums...

Every time we have a Budget the fuel is increased by a couple of pence per litre, it used to be per gallon, but they have decided they can get away with per litre... When I was younger and fuel was 157p per Imp Gallon 110p of that went to the Government as tax directly. Right now I would say that fuel costs (64*4.54)p per gallon so it would be at least (64*4.54)*(110/157) p direct tax...
Excuse this... it can't see my calculator!

Guess what they justify fleecing 25million car drivers with each Nobember/March... Environmental measures. My A**E!

Until we have sensible re-write of tax laws and taxation philosophy it will never be fair and its always the little guy who gets stuffed.

Enough from me...

Phil

From: Darren, Northants on 15 January 1998 at 12:42

Stamp duty is a good one: you apparently have to pay VAT on it. So they've taxed a tax, which is very shrewd.

At least I only have to pay road tax on my B for one more year, and it runs on unleaded now, too....

From: Andrew in Austin, TX: on 15 January 1998 at 13:12

To the folks in the U.K.- Don't let the MG owners on this side of pond misinform you. Almost every U.S. state has a state sales tax on a multitude of items purchased. In Texas, we pay 8% on everything but food and medicine. However, on some items the rate charged is about a percentage point less. So, even here, there is a VAT here or IVA in Spanish.

Gasoline taxes are dedicated to state highway departments and the U.S. DOT -not- the general revenue fund. Gasoline is about $1.25 or less a U.S. gallon or about 35 cents a liter. If you need more money for the general revenue set up a lotto. "A fill-up and a couple of Lotto tickets, please,"is commonly heard here.

In a state like Texas there are no state income taxes. In a state like N.Y. they pay both state income tax and U.S. income tax. Plus they have their local property taxes and that state sales tax. Many years ago, we had to pay property taxes on our cars. That has since been repealed.

In the land of the free, if you calculate all the taxes and fees together, you work about 5 months, plus, out of the year just to pay the taxman both directly and indirectly.

Looks like the repainting of my "B" will wait till 1999, my taxes are due.

From: Stefanie - Arkansas - dumboldgirl@hotmail.com on 15 January 1998 at 14:22

For Phil - In my area of the state we pay about 97 cents per gallon of gas. And since I'm currently driving a gas-guzzling V8, that helps me out a lot!

As for taxes in Arkansas, we pay state income tax as well as federal income tax. Also, unlike Texas, our groceries are subject to the same sales tax as everything else (in my city the current tax rate is 6.625%, with an election to be held next week to ask for an additional 1% for city improvements). Prescription drugs are about the only thing I can think of that are not taxed! There are also property taxes (both real estate and personal property) and a levee tax. Yep, levee tax: we have to pay for the maintenance of the levee (or in our case the two levees) that prevent the Mississippi River from doing what it wants to do - we hope! I'm not sure about inheritance taxes. Since I'm likely not to be on the receiving end, nor will I be on the giving end unless Arkansas gets a lottery and I win it, I'll probably never have first-hand knowledge of that! But there is also a "gift tax", which taxes the recipients of large gifts (I don't know the particulars of it, though, for the same reasons listed above on the inheritance taxes!

For an MGB tie-in, I could have filled up my B for about $9.70 at today's prices.

From: Miles Banister, Winchester UK on 15 January 1998 at 14:52

Hey Stefanie - here in the UK each household has to pay a Council Tax which is determined by the value of the house. That covers the services provided by the council - public libraries, schools, street lighting etc.
We also have to pay Vehicle Excise Duty (used to be called Road Fund Licence before they gave up pretending the money was spent on the roads) on any car used on the public road - cars over 25 years old are exempt though.
But do you mean you have to pay a tax over and above sales tax for just owning things ? What sort of things ?

From: Stefanie - Arkansas on 15 January 1998 at 15:01

Miles: Property taxes are in two categories: the first is real property, which is on any house, land or building you own. Personal property tax is a tax on (and here I quote my county tax collector) "anything you put a license plate on", which would be cars, trucks, boat trailers, automobile trailers, etc.

In my case, since I own my home, my real estate property taxes are paid by my mortgage company, but the total year's cost is broken down so that I only pay 1/12th of the tax each month into an escrow account set up by the mortgage company. They then take that money to pay the tax. My personal property taxes are due once per year (in October), and usually run about $125. That's just for one car.

From: H.P.Berger, Rutland, VT USA on 15 January 1998 at 15:24

I'm sorry to subject K.Hawkins, or anyone else to another dose of 'derogatory drivel' regarding so-called S(ports!!!)U(utility)V(ehicles)'s, BUT: while I'll defend anyone's right to buy and drive what they want, they ARE gas and space guzzlers, and, at least around my neck of the woods, they're generally being used like vans or station wagons and never set a wheel off pavement (except inadvertantly, when their drivers learn, on snowy or iced roads, that 4WD doesn't negate the laws of physics.) I'd have to assume, but don't know, that leaf blowers, lawn mowers, and barbecues are all bigger health risks than LEGALLY OWNED firearms in LA. Or MG's. p.s.: I'd be happy to adopt any Canadian firearms, antique or otherwise...cheers, h.

From: H.P. Berger Rutland, VT USA on 15 January 1998 at 15:45

Each of the 50 States has its own tax scheme(s), and, other than income tax, Federal taxes tend to be transparent to most of us: e.g. taxes on cigarettes,petrol and liquor, which are part of the retail purchase price. In my State, generally speaking, personal property's taxed only at purchase (sales tax), real estate's taxed locally, based on its fair market value, and meals and rooms are taxed. And there's an income tax (not to mention 'hidden'taxes on booze and cigarettes). At least at one time, I believe, CT taxed cars at purchase, then annually...

From: Miles Banister, Winchester UK on 15 January 1998 at 15:46

Stefanie: Oh I see, it's very much like what we have here but just called something different. Any way "they" can find to tax people seems fair game. I expect they'll reintroduce window tax before long ;-)

From: H.P.Berger, Rutland, VT 05701 on 15 January 1998 at 15:48

Miles- Not to mention another tax on tea....

From: Miles Banister, Winchester UK on 15 January 1998 at 15:59

HP: Funnily enough they've just done that - well almost. We are to have a new Food Safety Agency which will be funded by a flat fee of £100 payable by all food retail outlets (shops, restaurants etc). This is supposed to mean that the food industry bears the cost instead of the taxpayer. But where will the retailers get it from, and how long will stay at £100 ?.

From: Stefanie, Arkansas on 15 January 1998 at 16:01

Miles-
At the risk of coming across as a complete moron, what is a window tax? (If it's something I should have learned about in history class, you can blame my 8th grade teacher.)

H.P.-
That's why I drink coffee. (I remember this from Saturday morning cartoon shows like "Conjunction Junction" and "We the people" - do you remember the Schoolhouse Rock series?)

From: K Hawkins Yellowknife on 15 January 1998 at 16:21

I pay +-.76 CDN per litre for premium unleaded, whats that about $2.50 USD per US gallon.

We don't have sales tax other than the Canadian GST which is 7% and similar to the British VAT.

We also have a special treat of a 2% payroll tax. Sort of an extra income tax but refundable if you earn less than $55k and live here year round. It was intended to generate revenue from people who fly into the mines for 2 week shifts and live in another income tax jurisdiction. In Canada you pay Federal income tax and Provincal income tax for the province where you live.

The city also has discovered a neat little scheme of adding user fees to utility bills. The local Tree Hugger contingent convinced the city to Bale garbage to save dump space. This was financed by a levy to build a new dump. Now we have a levy to operate the bale plant and still need a new dump so get hit for both.

I hope they never hear of the property tax Stephanie is talking about. Does this tax on vehicles, boats etc only apply if they are licenced? What if you have project cars sitting waiting their turn?

H.P. my SUV may never go off road but our main highway would qualify as a logging road in most places. I have also crossed the river on the ice road with water over the running boards. You should see what happens to a Camry when towed through a construction area by a CAT. I will conceed that the SUV is a real pig to see or get around if you are in a smaller car.

Since we have all rambled off in our own directions I will open another can. How many of you are going to see increased insurance fees now that the Insurance companies have decided that their insistance on Anti Lock Brakes hasn't paid off because no effort was made to ensure people understood the principle.

-30 today still too cold to work on my car.

From: Miles Banister, Winchester UK on 15 January 1998 at 16:29

Stefanie: About a couple of hundred years ago the government introduced a tax depending on the number windows your house had. I think only glazed ones counted but can't swear to that. This led to lots of windows being bricked up, and houses from around that time being built with what looked like window apertures but already blocked up. I guess they though they'd put the real window in if the tax got repealed. They taxed all sorts of things back then - even wigs ! If your wig was natural you were ok but if you put white powder on it then you got caught for tax !! Sounds laughable now doesn't it - but I think there were riots at the time !

From: H.P.Berger on 15 January 1998 at 16:39

KH- I've spent just enough time in Canada to empathise with anyone who routinely has to buy gas, booze or cigs there: it's brutal. I can understand SUV's for the purpose they were initially intended- not as fashion accessories for cowboy wannabes, and I'm sorry my initial comment didn't make that clear. h.

From: Stefanie, Arkansas on 15 January 1998 at 17:08

KH-

This tax only applies to vehicles that are licensed. Therefore, if you have purchased a project car (or cars) you wouldn't have to pay personal property tax on it until it was licensed. Here's where it gets strange: I bought my car in October of 1996, removing my previous vehicle from the property tax register. That vehicle stayed in the computer system until the end of the 1996 calendar year, along with my new car. So I actually won't pay tax on my current car until October of this year, if I am correct at recalling how this system works. The way my brain is working today, who knows?!?!?

From: Phil Curnow, phil.curnow@bbsrc.ac.uk on 15 January 1998 at 17:17

Wow this is getting good, a real spleen vent thread...

Do you think we can pass the 100 comments mark before the end of the tax year? April 5th 1998 in the UK.

Sounds like you guys get it easy, less than $10 for a 54 litre tank? Don't come crying to me they do introduce a window tax...

The other daft thing about petrol in the UK is the variability...

Cheshire, my Parents home... 65p per litre
St Albans, my "home"... 66p per litre
Uxbridge, my Lasses home... 61p per litre
Northampton, my Lasses parents home... 65p per litre

I think that last one is right thpough Darren may correct me...

I have to part with £150 this month for the priviledge of driving on clogged motorways and potholed A roads. Road Tax, Vehicle licence, Excise I don't care, its all my hard earned leaving out the door...

Keep 'em coming guys...

Phil.

From: Stefanie on 15 January 1998 at 17:37

Phil-

The only reason I could get away with filing my car up for so little was because my gas gauge broke. Found out it was broken the hard way, so I never traveled over a set number of miles without refilling my tank. (The frequent fill-ups were my Dad's idea, after he came to my rescue more than once)

From: The Grim Reaper, Twilight Zone on 15 January 1998 at 17:38

ENOUGH ALREADY!

From: Gerry in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 16 January 1998 at 1:24

On Schoolhouse rock: Rocks (telegraph line was my personal fave, Stephanie). On SUVs, I live in rural northern MI (militia country!) and we have a number of bear hunters etc who have legitimate reasons for SUVs. More power to them but we also have a s**tload of fudgies (people from downstate who come up as tourists and alway buy fudge) who drive up from Detroit in their full-size explorers which, if they get mud on them, they're cleaning up immediately.
Personally, I'm driving a Bronco right now as my normal winter driver decided to do a SOnny Bono--I hate it. It handles like a truck, gets whipped by the wind, and I feel downright like I'm constantly fighting it....
As for gas prices--whenever I drive through Canada, I fill up before I leave the states and try to get across without stopping for gas....I just wanted to point out to all the whiners, that Americnas have it pretty good in comparison to others; and since taxation is a part of the system....Why? Because bureaucrats need to get paid (and need health insurance for life, and need a big ass pension after they retire (bigger than I'll ever see) and need big staffs, etc) I disagree with that, and with a government that will shoot down a minimum wage hike but guarantee themselves a raise....
Figure me out though, I moved to one of the few towns up here with an income tax....Ooops.
Of course, I buy all my stuf for my MG mailorder--we don't pay tax on that (yet).
--G

From: James Hesser jbeecher@sanasys.com on 16 January 1998 at 4:14

Hey Gerry, on the Bronco. Try some of the neat urethane bushes energy suspension makes for your upper and lower controll arms. Then run the progressive rate springs front and rear. Uprate the sway bar or add one. Then try out some nicer shocks.
Also on the ball joints and steering links they make now out of the new forging process allowing much tighter tollerence.
I've seen people eliminate "handles like a truck" with the aftermarket stuff that's now available. Neat thing is all that fance stuff is still sold at "cheap truck parts" prices".
The old Ford F-100 was annoyingly sloppy. Finaly we put all new steering components, ball joints and urethane radius arm bushings in. It only took a few hours. Then with four new Monroe sensatracs the thing handles better than when it was new.
I actualy like driving it. If you've got I bemas , fix it up it's one of the few things Ford ever did right. OK so I beams on a truck aren't as cool as GT-40 race cars, but it's better than Torinos, no?

From: Darren, Northants on 16 January 1998 at 9:45

Why do people keep telling us to stop a thread? Is this government censorship? I suspect a conspiracy....

Freedom of the press is a precious thing, though of course you never really know if what your reading is censored or not, because the ones telling you that what you read is censored, would be censored (?).

Anyway, there's enough other threads to read, just don't read this if you don't want to. I guess its like people who complain constantly that there's nothing on TV, but never switch it off.

(PS: unleaded varies from 64p to 70p in Northampton, which is kind of hard to justify. And why are they putting speed bumps in petrol stations? Don't they want custom from MG owners? Maybe our tanks are too small).

From: gerry in grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 16 January 1998 at 12:58

James, thanks for the info--I'll pass it on to the Broncos owner--I'm just borrowing the thing until my car's out of the body shop (Tuesday....)

Darren: As for people who keep asking us to stop this thread, my sentiment is that they know the conversation that's going on, if they don't want to read it they don't have to. There's no MGB General Bulletin Board mandate that says we all must read every posting, is there? (yikes!)

--Gerry

From: Grim Reaper, Twilight Zone on 16 January 1998 at 13:21

Gerry in Grayling and all the rest of you wafflers - the end is surely nigh - cease and desist or suffer eternal damnation and torment at the wheel of a Triumph TR7.

From: Darren, Northants (For Grim Reaper) on 16 January 1998 at 14:13

For your information, this is an MG BBS, please don't start a conversation about Triumphs.

(Joke?).

From: Stefanie - Arkansas on 16 January 1998 at 14:40

Let's not worry about the Grim Reaper. I don't think he can handle ice storms, and the way it feels today, hell has frozen over. Yep, we got about half an inch of ice last night!!!! Makes for fun driving today, of course. You wouldn't believe all the idiots who tried to drive across overpasses at 75-80mph and then wonder why they're in a multi-car pile up or in a ditch by themselves!

But seriously, there were a lot of people hurt and possibly two or three killed (at least that's what I heard on my police scanner) last night on Interstate 55 in Arkansas. The roadways were clear, but as we all know, the bridges and overpasses freeze up first and I guess these people weren't expecting that. Arkansas doesn't salt roads, they sand them. Makes it slicker, if you ask me. Oh, well. We only have one snowplow in the state, as far as I know, and they usually keep it over in the mountains.

For Gerry: My favorite Schoolhouse Rock was "I'm just a Bill, on Capitol Hill...."

From: Pat Bailey Lancaster CA pbailey@qnet.com on 16 January 1998 at 15:35

Just a question,did anyone ask Al Gore if your ice storms was the result of global warming?Also don't like to rub it in(but I must)I went for a nice drive last Sunday...top down......70 deg weather.....Don't worry they are predicting"El Nino" will get us yet and we will wash away into the Pacific!

From: Grim Reaper, Twilight Zone on 16 January 1998 at 15:58

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh.......**BANG**


(eyewitness observation: the Grim Reaper just exploded. We need fear death no more - anarchy, stupidity and way-off-beam threads on an MGB BBS rule from now on.)

From: Stefanie, Arkansas on 16 January 1998 at 16:58

Pat:

Global warming is the direct result of all the children in the world running in and out of heated houses in the winter, leaving the door open. That, or leaky MGB convertible tops. I remember shoveling snow out of the driver's seat on more than one occasion!

I thought an earthquake was going to be the end of California?!?!?! If El Nino's gonna do it, too, maybe I should look into that Arizona oceanfront property after all!

From: Bob in Calgary on 16 January 1998 at 20:06

Gas prices/Taxes: Gerry in Grayling - Canada is a very big country and the oil wells are only in one part of it (right here, hurray!)so gas prices vary a lot. I filled up last night at a Shell station, paying $0.48Canadian per litre. At today's exchange rate that's $1.27(US) per USA gallon, and 20p per litre for our UK friends. Can't believe gas is so expensive in the part of Canada near you that it calls for heroic avoidance measures. Whatever the price, unless you're in Kuwait or Saudi it's about 75% taxes - I work in the industry (exploration/production, tho') and know a bit about it. As with many other businesses, the oil companies are just tax collectors for the government

From: Bob in Calgary on 16 January 1998 at 20:44

Whoa! Got off the old soapbox a bit too soon.... Recalled Harold Burger's remark about empathising with Canadians for high prices we pay for gas, cigs and booze. Well as I said above, gas last night was $1.27US per USA gallon and six weeks ago I paid $1.32 in Los Angeles. Granted we have the cheapest gas in the country here in Alberta. Booze? well, have you tasted our beer? - it's worth it. As for cigarettes, the existence of universal public health care here makes it necessary to charge a little extra "insurance premium" to those at highest risk of using the system and costing it a bunch of money through persistent and wilful practice of a bad habit.

From: H.P.Berger on 16 January 1998 at 21:30

As for gas/petrol prices, I'm sure they're cheaper in Texas, too. Perhaps someone from Quebec, PEI or Ontario, by way of example, can enlighten us. And yes, there are some extremely good Canadian beers.However,. some of us like a pre-dinner mixed drink or two, and I almost fell over when I ran out and had to buy a fifth in Ont. BTW do the taxes on the beer and other alcohol all go to support national health care? Is there a higher tax on high cholesteral meals? Yes, smoking is a dumb habit/addiction. Maybe anyone who does anything statistically unsafe in Canada should have to pay a higher premium to make up for possible increases in health care costs: motorcyclists, couch potatoes, hockey players, etc...

From: Gerry in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 18 January 1998 at 14:04

Just for Stephanie on the issue of salting vs sanding,

Although sanding doesn't melt the snow as quickly as salt, with enough traffic it will do the job; furthermore, its goal is to create friction for those people who are drriving on the roads. In Northern MI (where we currently have too much snow for my particular tastes) they voer-salt the roads. The salt melt, with the help of the remaining salt which begins to pock the asphalt with minor holes, seeps into the asphalt, refreezes and BOOM--instant potholes. There are certain roads up here, that I will NOT drive my B on because the potholes are too big. We prefer sanding....

And yes, I particularly enjoy the people who decide that 70 on ice-slick roads is acceptable (I once saw a grand cherokee going down a street wiidthwise...)
--Gerry
PS. The grim reaper can bite my....

From: Gerry in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 18 January 1998 at 14:12

Hmm--I have to give Bob some credit (although currently I am paying $1.05 a gallon for petrol...) regarding the state of Canadian health care--having been unemployed in the past--it's scary, especially with a young kid). I'll also give him kudos for his booze/ cigarette argument (personally, I drink imported beers like Bass & Harp so I pay out the wazoo for them anyway; as an ex-smoker I empathize, but hell, i think they still aren't expensive enough).

MG connection? Saw a young girl with a cigarette this summer and asked me if I had a light. The lighter in my car doesn't work (damn Lucas electric!)

--Gerry

From: Stefanie, Arkansas on 19 January 1998 at 14:57

For Gerry:

I get your point about salting. I'm glad we don't have salt trucks!

About the Jeep you saw -- do you think the driver thought his (or her) 4wd would save his (or her) a**? I am trying to be PC, don't you know!

BTW, did you see the news this morning? Cut-off switches for Chevy and Ford airbags are available starting today. Oh, to be clairvoyant so we could see the results of this 2 or 3 years down the road!

MGB connection: I had an airbag on the passenger side of my B when my best friend was along for the ride! She would probably say the same thing about her 74 Corvette when I was riding shotgun.

From: Gerry in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 20 January 1998 at 5:05

For Stephanie,

Actually, one of the biggest problems we have here about salting is that for some odd reason rather than salt both sides of any given road, the road comission (in order to save money) salts down the middle of the road, leaving the passenger side always icy while the driver side is always dry....
It makes for a messy combination.

It will be interesting when one of those drivers with the airbag shut off is in an accident and then sues because they were allowed to cut off the airbag....Nobody wants to take responsibility for their stupidity (I love it when people smoking for fifty years decide to sue cigarette companies)(One of the most difficult things I have to teach is responsibility....)

By the way, I like the adverb song too.

My ex-girlfriend was full of hot air, but I wouldn't say she was an airbag....(this connects with MGs because we were together the entire time my MG was blue--our first date was my test drive; she broke up with me two days before I got it back from the body shop...)

--Gerry

From: Stefanie on 20 January 1998 at 14:39

On salting roads:

Here they sand only the intersections, so most folks are out of control long before they get to the sand! I guess salting the center of the road is OK as long as you are the only one on the road - then you can drive in the middle. We had a saying in high school, "I pay taxes on both sides of the road, so I'll drive wherever I want to."

As a non-reformed smoker, I fully realize what I'm doing to myself. I want to quit, but I lost 45 pounds 2 years ago and I'm afraid I'll gain some of it back. Not good, since I got rid of all my "fat" clothes. However, I wouldn't sue a tobacco company. I don't see how all these people are collecting huge settlements.

Mentioned having a cut-off switch installed in my T-bird, but my Dad shot that down quickly. Amazing that at 31 I'm still under my parents' thumbs, huh?

MG connection: check the "fine weather and booze cruise" thread on the MGF general BB.

"how, where or when, condition or reason....."

From: Gerry in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 21 January 1998 at 3:41

On salting the middle of the roads:
The only poroblem is when you crest the hill and that oncoming car is right there in the middle of the road too....

On being an ex-smoker & trying to keep the weight off:
When I quit smoking I started to buy packs of Stimudents (fibrous toothpick-like stuff put out by Johnson & Johnson that are flavored) and gnaw on them to help the oral fixation; I liked also that I could pull one from my mouth and gesticulate with them. I didn't smoke, i learned, because I was addicted, but because I wanted something to do with my hands/ mouth in most situation. Gum didn't help the hand problem. I didn't gain weight....
(congrats too on losing 45 pounds. I lost 25 of fat and gained some musculature back--it's not easy. Especially right after the holidaze)

On being underparents thumb (this connects to MGs):
Last summer I drove with my son from Northern MI to NYC to visit my family. Mom did NOT like the idea of us driving LittleCar all that way, and let it be known that she thought a 71 B was for cruising Northern MI in summer--that's all. I had the car finally restored, new seatbelts (see other thread for that issue though), but still it did not relieve her fears. I'm 29. She wasn't worried about me, she was worried about Alex (who's six and who wanted to take the MG). So I got a carphone. It worked to ease her fears...

From: Stefanie, Arkansas on 21 January 1998 at 14:45

Gerry:

I completely understand about the grandparent/grandchild thing. After I married and had my daughter, my parents had custody of my MGB (my ex was in the military and we had nowhere to put it, so it sat in my parents' garage). Since it was still running at the time, whenever we came home on leave I drove it around (no matter if it was 30 degrees in the winter, the top was down). The head is blown on the car now, according to the guy who bought it. Seems the clutch is shot, too. And the brakes. I don't suppose you want to hear about the Lucas end--that's on another thread.

But even in the summer I was not allowed to take the "most precious child ever to grace this earth" for a ride in the B.

I do have pictures, however, of my daughter as a 7 month old being held in a standing position on the boot. Some of my favorite pictures of my two babies!

From: Keith Wilds, Groton Ct/k_m_wilds@prodigy.net on 22 January 1998 at 3:40

Gee, the study I saw proved that smokers, by dying sooner and faster than no-smokers, actually cost the health care system LESS money.

Keith

From: Gerry in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 23 January 1998 at 1:07

Stephanie:

Although my mother hates the idea of us driving around the country in a 71B, she said she had to admit my son's face when telling her about the drive was lovely. And she loves it when she comes out to visit us in the summer and she rides in the passenger seat....

From: Stefanie on 23 January 1998 at 14:40

Gerry:

My mother only rode in my B under extreme duress. I asked her the other day why she never drove it and she told me that I had told her she couldn't drive it. This happened on one occasion when the B needed to be backed out of the driveway so my Dad could get his car out. OUCH! I guess I was the typical snotty teenager, huh?????

From: Stefanie, Arkansas on 23 January 1998 at 16:19

ON DRINKING AND DRIVING & HANDGUNS:

True story! Paraphrased as published in my local newspaper.

4 men were sitting in a car after drinking at a party on a Saturday afternoon. The driver of the car had a handgun and suggested a game of Russian roulette. The passenger in the front seat, as well as the 2 in the back seat, declined. Driver grabs passenger, puts the gun to his head and pulls the trigger. As luck would have it, the one chamber that had a bullet in it was in firing position. The passenger dies. The man starts the car (remember, they had all been drinking) and drove to the Sheriff's office, where the driver told the deputies that he had just shot a man and killed him.

*Drove to the Sheriff's office*, drunk?!?!?! The county officials apparently have never said whether they administered a breathalyzer, but....

They are apparently not charging him with DUI, but they are charging him with second degree murder.

No, they weren't in an MG, but this goes back about 10 days or so on this thread about guns, drunk driving, etc. Plus my tax dollars are now feeding this man his 3 squares a day and providing him with a place to live where he gets to watch TV and play basketball while I work.

From: Derek Berger, Arlington, VA berger@nicom.com on 23 January 1998 at 18:08

I swore to myself I wouldn't participate in this thread, but since this is in reference to the "kids in MGs" portion rather than the "Guns, Big Brother, DUI death penalty" part, I'll cut myself some slack.

My parents had a B roadster when they lived in Italy in 1968, when I was born. They love to tell me about how they used to put me in a basket on the rear shelf with no restraints whatsoever and cruise around the Italian countryside. Can you imagine doing that today? They'd probably be arrested for child abuse and endangerment. On the other hand, I think the B experiences of my infancy are what caused me to buy the B I have now. So I'm grateful!

Derek

From: Gerry in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 24 January 1998 at 3:24

Stephanie:

Let my mother drive it! Yikes! She rides shotgun when she's in town. (she also clutches the dashboard with her left hand and the door sill with her right and shuts her eyes REAL tight....)

Only two other people have driven the car (one while I was puching it, the other was a minister friend whose garage I left LittleCar in while I was visiting NYC last summer. He took it out without my permission and told me he was insured by god when I found out....Damn Christian logic....)

--Gerry

From: Stefanie, Arkansas on 26 January 1998 at 15:41

Gerry:

I know how you feel about other people driving your MG.

Only 3 other people drove mine: The day I got it, I took it to show to my grandfather and let him inspect it. (He was a racecar driver in the 30's-50's) and he just jumped in it and took off. I stood in his driveway with tears rolling down my face and my Dad laughing at me. One other was my then-boyfriend. He also just jumped in it after wrestling my keys away and I barely had time to hop in the passenger seat. He spent the whole drive comparing it to his car (a 64 Corvette convertible). Needless to say, that relationship didn't last long. The 3rd was my dad. He loved the car as much as I did.

From: Darren, northants on 26 January 1998 at 15:56

'Christian Logic'? Are they not mutually exclusive?

From: Grim Reaper II, Twilight Zone on 27 January 1998 at 11:30

Yawn - is this thread still going?

From: Gerry in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 27 January 1998 at 13:05

Stephanie,

It seems like all the other people who have driven your B were men who took it without asking....(Just an observation).

Sooner or later, I'm sure I'll be in a relationship with a woman who will have a set of keys to LittleCar, but my last one (our first date was the evening I test drove the car) didn't know how to drive a stick and was quite content not doing any of the work in the relationship (driving just being one little job....) Needles to say....

--Gerry

And by the way, Christian Logic was meant to be ironic, everybody :-)

From: Stefanie, Arkansas on 27 January 1998 at 14:44

Gerry:
Good observation on your part.
The only man who asked to drive my B was my dad. He enjoyed driving it, having owned a TR2 and a TR3 while he was in the military, but he hated my bumper sticker "Single and loving it". I can't believe I was a bumper sticker person. Don't worry, it's gone, and the rubber bumper is none the worse for it. My ex-husband asked several times to drive it, but I never let him. One of those things that I can still gloat over! Maybe that's why he sold it out from under me, though, the #%$@#*&%!!!!!

Grim Reaper II:
Yep.

From: Grim Reaper II, Twilight Zone on 27 January 1998 at 17:26

Stefanie, meet Gerry. Gerry, meet Stefanie. Please exchange e-mail addresses guys, and enjoy wonderful correspondence.

Goodnight.

From: Gerry in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 28 January 1998 at 0:46

You know, just an observation (to continue with my observation in my and Stefanie's rather public conversation) that there are very few women involved with this board. It's odd because more women tend to take interest in my 71 B then men (it's not muscular and masculine, it's--dare I say it--cute *cringe*). yet, this does seem to be an overtly male population. Is it the mechanics? It would seem to me if that were the case, the general index would at least have more women participants.
Just noticing stuff.
Sorry I bothered the Grim Reaper.....
(now that has ominous undertones)
--Gerry

From: Jim Cedar Rapids IA jdgarber@cacd.rockwell.com on 28 January 1998 at 14:32

Yeah, why is that. I gf first pointed out MGB's to me when I started looking for a car this summer. But, even though she's always wanted one, I don't think she would ever get one. Maybe because, they aren't really "practical". My gf would justify herself out of getting one for that reason anyway. Do men in general just have a louder kid inside drowning out our practical side?

Just me keeping this thread alive.

From: Stefanie, Arkansas on 28 January 1998 at 14:39

I think all of us have a little kid inside, and maybe the boys are just more likely to let them out more often because of conventional social training. Perhaps a lot of women don't buy MG's because they've heard so much about the constant upkeep of them, but cheers to Kathy in Denver for taking the plunge!

Don't know if mechanics would be the so-called "turn off". I was able to do many repairs in the engine compartment myself with very little background in automotive repairs. (My dad refused to let me take auto shop in high school, so I refused to take home economics on principle). I have discovered with my daily driver that new engines are much more complex. In fact, about all I can do to my T-bird is add/change fluids or replace spark plugs. I miss the days of carburetors, no matter how cantankerous they can be!

(Have we reached 100 comments on this thread yet?????)

From: Darren, Northants on 28 January 1998 at 15:04

Maybe it's the lack of power steering? (I know I struggle).

Or maybe the lack of a vanity mirror? (joking...)

From: Stefanie, Arkansas on 28 January 1998 at 15:29

Never thought of the lack of power steering!

Vanity mirrors?!?!?! What's the point???? When you've got the top down you can't be concerned with your hair!!!! I always wore mine in a pony tail or under a ball cap to keep from having my eyes beaten out of my head. And forget makeup! It was always gone in a matter of minutes in the hot sun. Besides, any self-respecting woman can apply lipstick without benefit of a mirror! ;-)

If necessary, the rearview mirror can suffice in a pinch, though the door mirrors require a bit of contortion for the average person to check their appearance!

From: Jim Iowa, jdgarber@cacd.rockwell.com on 28 January 1998 at 15:34

Let's face it, when your driving an MG, you KNOW you look good. There's no need to look in any mirror other than to check on other traffic.

BTW, I think were closing in on 90 comments in this thread.

From: Gerry in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 29 January 1998 at 13:04

The only time you don't look good with your MG is when you're pushing it home.... (sorry, bad memory surfacing there!)

It's interesting, I always told my ex that were we to get married I would buy her a B and she was all for it. of course, I was hsopping for rings in NYC while she was having an affair back in MI, so....(woops, another bad memory surfacing there).

Anyway, I have to give Stefanie kudos for managing to keep a hat on while driving a B--I lost two ball caps at about 65 mph, and figured I'd just keep a hat in the car under the seat for use when I'm walking around after I've gotten where I'm going.

From: H.P. Berger, Rutland, VT USA on 29 January 1998 at 15:19

Gerry, Try a Tilly Endurable or similar hat, with chin strap: they'll stay on at well over 65, at least with one side of the brim up, and do a far better job in rain than any ball cap, when caught hood down. Also far better sun protection... h.

From: Derek Berger, Arlington, VA berger@nicom.com on 29 January 1998 at 15:47

Better yet, those sharp-looking RAF flying helmets and goggles Moss sells. And of course they are also perfect for business meetings, dinner dates... whatever the occasion.

From: Stefanie, Arkansas on 29 January 1998 at 15:54

As long as you have a very sharp hatpin, any hat will stay on. It would also serve as a self-defense device in certain situations!

Crash helmets stay on well, too. Causes a lot of stares, though....

From: Jim Iowa jdgarber@cacd.rockwell.com on 29 January 1998 at 16:30

Yeah, but I bet other cars will give you more room if your wearing a crash helmet. :o)

From: Darren, Northants on 29 January 1998 at 16:45

What the hell is a ball cap? Aren't adequate thermals available stateside? I would have thought the main way to prevent them blowing off would be a change in diet.

From: Phil "It's all my fault" Curnow, phil.curnow@bbsrc.ac.uk on 29 January 1998 at 17:28

Well who would of thought it, and sudden revival and that 100 is getting a lot closer. What will happen and will it bring the server down. We should find out sometime tonight...

Its a fun thread though, if you ignore what the Grim Reaper has to say. Fort any Pratchet fans out there, I have one question does this chap call his MG Binky? Sounds to me like he's the kind of chap who likes to surf bulletin boards and all day and tell everyone they have no life...Paradox?

Keep it coming, its a all a right-wing conspiricy...TOPICAL!!!

In a survey of American women 14% replied "Yes" when asked if they would sleep with Bill Clinton. That's 1 in 7! The other 86% replied "No, not again."

Phil

From: H.P. Mad as a Hatter Berger, Rutland. VT on 29 January 1998 at 17:55

Derek, I doubt those leather flying helmets are any too comfortable when the temp's in the 90's and so's the humidity. And Darren, get your mind out of the gutter. (Well, guess that's what comes of public urination.) You can, however, get your very own ball cap from 'regalia' at the home page, which can be worn with or without your thermals. As for Pres. Clinton, unfortunately, all the topical jokes I've heard should probably not go on the net, at least under my name. Well, other than possibly, news of the renaming of the Oval Office to the Oral Office...

From: Stefanie, Arkansas on 29 January 1998 at 19:03

Darren, I think you misread "cap" for "cup"??????

And I heard the percentage was 94% on the survey!!!!! (But maybe that was just in Arkansas?!?!?) ;-)

Yep, he was my state's governor for 12 years!!!!

From: Gerry in grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 29 January 1998 at 19:48

Ball cap might be something we put on public urinators to prevent such behavior in the future....

You know, I was thinking you could get one of those plastic helmets for the two cans of beverage and hopefully the weight of the cans would keep it from blowing off....

As for hats as rain protection when you're driving--hell if it starts to rain, I'm getting that roof up! One quick story:

July 4 1996 (a holiday for those of us in the States) I was coming home from a Romantic holiday picnic and it was extremely grey. Roof down--folks are honking at us as we zipped by, pointing skyward. I exitted the high- way and cruised into a gas station. Just as I got under it's "roofed" area, the sky opened up--one of those belligerent summer thunder storms. I non- chalantly got out of the car and began the procedure of putting the top up. Across the pumps, a guy was filling up his SUV and shakes his head. Then he says, "You're the luckiest son of a bitch I've ever seen."

Anybody ever try driving with an umbrella hat?

From: H.P.Berger, Rutland, VT USA on 29 January 1998 at 20:18

Gerry, if you can get your top up in a downpour, where there're no trees, bridges, or canopies to get under, without getting soaked more than pressing on regardless, you're either luckier or faster than I, or both. Someone once made the observation that only the British would have a hood requiring three people to erect, and put it on a two-seater.

From: Stefanie, Arkansas on 29 January 1998 at 20:34

I always found that I stayed *drier* if I left the top down and just kept driving *fast*! I always carried 2 or 3 beach towels in the car for those times I got caught with the top *up* in the rain! My windshield leaked like a sieve!

From: Andrew in Wilmington, Delaware, USA on 29 January 1998 at 21:03

Wow, what isn't covered in this monster??

This isn't a thread, it is a battleship chain.

Cordially,
Andrew
'74 MGB "Constance"

From: Andrew in Wilmington, Delaware,USA on 29 January 1998 at 22:13

Phil, great comments. Thanks for the Clinton joke, there is more to come yet!

One comment regarding British colloquial speech. What does "egg on a shovel" refer to?

Please sign me,

Wondering in the colonies.

From: Grim Reaper II, Twilight Zone on 30 January 1998 at 12:02

If this is a battleship, please bring on the torpedoes.

Like the Clinton jokes, however - appeals to my darker side.

How about a new category heading for a sub-list - the "Gerry in Grayling and Stefanie Show". Should outdo Frasier and Friends in the ratings list.

Sorry - gotta go; some more souls need sucking up.

From: David Knowles, London on 30 January 1998 at 12:07

Hmm... the thought of the grim reaper driving an MGB is rather spooky. Gives a different perspective to the thought of waving at other MG drivers - if you don't wave, could it be him?

From: Darren, Northants on 30 January 1998 at 12:09

How can you be Grim Reaper II? Grim Reaper would have to have died, but being dead, it would be hard for him to reap himself. So someone else would have to reap him, but that would involve there being two reapers simultaneously.

Unless he was reaped by the Gran Reaper, or the Grin Reaper, or maybe some other kind of reaper.

To be honest, I think 'grim' captures the mind-state most suitable to this challenging role, the idea of being taken by someone with a sense of humour is too horrible to comprehend.

Perhaps you should be the Grimmer Reaper, or reaperer, or whatever.

From: Darren, Northants on 30 January 1998 at 12:11

Maybe you can become immortal if you get hold of a Lucas Hour glass? (Phew, back on the MG thread....)

From: Grim Reaper II on 30 January 1998 at 15:24

MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB
MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB
MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB
MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB
MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB
MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB
MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB
MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB MGB

... aah - that's better - a bit of relevance. Mr. Curnow - you're on my list now too for a visit with the scythe. Grin Reaper? You too, Mr. Darren Northants. And yes Mr. Knowles - you'd better wave at me too!

From: Darren, Northants on 30 January 1998 at 15:32

But you'll never find me, as you seem to think Northants is part of my name....

From: Grim Reaper II, Northants on 30 January 1998 at 15:40

Thanks for the correction Darren. As you can see, I'm now close by....look out for a black MGB with a hooded driver

From: Darren, Bucks, heading south on 30 January 1998 at 15:50

Would that be the one that travels silently, inches above the ground, and always surrounded by fog?

If so, mine isn't the tomato coloured one heading very fast down the A45....

(Do garlic and crosses work on Reapers?)

From: The Omnipotent One, The Boss@The pearly gates on 30 January 1998 at 16:02

My sources inform me that the Grim Reaper II is in the Dallas, TX area, Darren.

Fear not!

From: Grim Reaper II, Southants, Eastants and Westants (boy those ants itch!) on 30 January 1998 at 16:35

Heh heh - the Boss's satellite surveyance stinks - made by Lucas of course. Just as well my MGB is fitted with stealth equipment.

Gerry and Stefanie have gone quiet - guess they're havin' wonderful e-mail somewhere.

When I've finished with Mr. Ants-in-his-pants, I'm off to Grayling and Arkansas to do my stuff.

From: Any mouse on 30 January 1998 at 20:10

Did some mention Clinton jokes??

President Clinton looks up from his desk in the Oval Office to see one of his aides nervously approaching him. "What is it?" exclaims the President. "It's this Abortion Bill, Mr. President. What do you want to do about it?" the aide replies. "Just go ahead and pay it," responds the President.


Bill and Hillary are at a restaurant. The waiter tells them tonight's specials are chicken almondine and fresh fish. "The chicken sounds good; I'll have that," Hillary says. The waiter nods. "And, the vegetable?" he asks. "Oh, he'll have the fish," Hillary replies.


Q. Bill and Hillary are on a sinking boat. Who gets saved?
A. The nation.


Q. What does Bill say to Hillary after having sex?
A: "Honey, I'll be home in 20 minutes."


Clinton returns from a vacation in Arkansas and walks down the steps of Air Force One with two pigs under his arms. At the bottom of the steps, he says to the honour guardsman, "These are genuine
Arkansas Razorback Hogs. I got this one for Chelsea and this one for Hillary." The guardsman replies, "Nice trade, sir."


Q: What is Bill's definition of safe sex?
A: When Hillary is out of town.

Q: How does Bill keep Monica Lewinsky away from the White House?
A: He keeps offering to send Ted Kennedy over to give her a ride.


Q: What's the definition of an Arkansas Virgin?
A: A girl that can run faster than the Governor.

Q: What does Teddy Kennedy have that Bill Clinton wishes *he* did?
A: A dead girlfriend.


Q: Why is Clinton so interested in events in the Middle East?
A: He thinks the Gaza Strip is a topless bar.

From: Dwight Dallas mgv8@swbell.net on 31 January 1998 at 1:52

Hello Mr.Reaper. If You're in the Dallas area, why don't you drop by house & have a beer? If you have time we could pull the V8 badges off my B & go hunt down Porches, that's always a good time. When they lose, I could keep their car & you could claim their soul,if they haven't already sold it to "you know who" for the price of a 911.I'm sorry to say that I'll be out of town this weekend.I have a sick aunt in Tibet who's come down with somthing that they don't have a name for. Get back with me later.

Spuriously Yours Dwight

From: Gerry in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 31 January 1998 at 3:29

Hey Grimmy, I'm back! How's Dallas?

Anyway, H.P., I can get the roof up over my b in under four minutes in a rush by myself. Quicker with extra hands on the inside. Even Alex knows how to help out when we need to.

I'm curious where the reaper puts his scythe in a B? I picture it sitting in the passenger seat and sticking up over the windshield. Hate to think what happens to the rag top when he has to put the roof up--or does reaper boy drive with the top down in the rain--wouldn't be surprised, I always thought he was all wet....

One More Clinton Joke:
Why does Clinton have interns in the oval office?
To see the executive branch....

And wouldn't you all love to know what Stefanie and I have to say about the whole lot of you in our Emails....

From: ETD on 31 January 1998 at 6:21

I have an MG question (sort of) and I need everyones advice on it. I live in Mi, along with Gerry, and the summer just isn't coming fast enough. And I have found myself in a real predicament here. I'm only 18, and I drive a 77B, well, all the girls are asking me for a ride in it and I don't know what to do!!! The weather sucks, and I hate to loose out on the opportunity of a life time! HELP!! I never thought I would be lucky enough to have this problem, and now that I do, I don't have a clue what to tell them. Now for my next question. Do they all want me for my car?? :)
Anyway, thanks for your advice, if you have any for me.

ETD

From: David Lieb, Wonder Lake IL USA, dbl8317@mc.net on 31 January 1998 at 14:32

ETD,
I don't seem to understand the question or maybe the problem... My B seems to like cold weather more than warm; no fears about over-heating, denser air to improve ignition, other drivers being so shocked that they give you their turn at the stop sign.
Gerry,
I tend to agree with Stephani -- As it was explained to me in a MG publication, Little British Convertibles were designed to leak. You can move the leaks around, but you cannot eliminate them. The cars were designed to develop small holes in the floor at the appropriate places to prevent flooding. When it comes to rain you have two choices: If you put up the top, the faster you go the more rain comes in; If you leave the top down, the faster you go the less rain comes in. So, would you rather go fast with the top down or slow with the top up?
Personally, my biggest problem has always been the fact that I have three wipers on the outside of the windscreen and none on the inside! I keep meaning to pick up some Rain-X to try, but keep forgetting until too late. Actually, my new top is still in my closet, the door glass is still in donor doors and the bulk of the interior remains to be purchased (some purist in a magazine claimed that a real "roadster" has no glass on the sides and no hood to put up, so I guess I have a very rare true MGB Roadster). It is a lot of fun to drive topless around ChicagoLand in January!!
David "Driving Topless" Lieb

From: Stefanie, Arkansas on 31 January 1998 at 21:28

Been out cruising in a friend's B (they have a whole stable of them to choose from!!!!--and I picked a white one this time) with the TOP DOWN since it's so warm today. (60 and climbing!) Does that mean the Grim Reaper is here? Maybe that *was* brimstone I was dodging earlier. Oh, well, at least I have something to line my barbecue grill with tonight!

(Gerry, you weren't supposed to say anything about that!!!!)

From: Kathy Denver CO on 31 January 1998 at 23:14

Steph,
I am glad you're getting your fix of a B somehow! Nice people to let you drive it. I don't think there are any of my friends who I would trust with my B. I've seen how they all drive! Yikes! Can you guys stand one more girl hanging around?

From: Gerry in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 01 February 1998 at 3:30

Kathy from Denver, welcome! Personally I think some of the guys around this place need some estrogen in their lives. But then again, I'm one of the few males I know proud to consider himself a feminist.

ETD, Where do you live in Michigan. Our state is the number one user of rock salt for its roads int he union. I don't know how much salt you have on the roads where you are but I know this much--I don't bring my B out until after one good rain has washed the salt clear. The cars rust easily enough without help from Michigan DOT. But if it's in the forties and unsalty, go for it. And if the girl just wants you for the car, well that beats not wanting you at all...right? Seriously though, the car represents who you are, so if she's intrigued by the car, she just might be intrigued by its driver....

Stefanie--oops!

We haven't heard from Darren recently folks--do you think the Reaper got him or was he arrested for public urination?

--G

From: ETD on 01 February 1998 at 5:07

I do the majority of my driving in wayne county (detroit) where the saly crews are so efficient, that the salt is on the road at least an hour before the snow hits the ground!!
It's good unless you drive an MG. Mine is a daily driver, so there is no way to get around the salt, except to wash my car a lot. Yeah, I agree, if they want me for my car, it is better then nothing. I just hope the weather gets nice soon so they can 'have' me :-}
I don't think I would ever letanyone else drive my MG, I'm too paranoid. Unless one of those girls wants to learn how to drive a stick, then I'm all over that.

From: Kathy Denver on 01 February 1998 at 7:05

E,
I don't think I even want to touch the comment about your teaching a girl how to use a "stick"! hehehe Ok, some of us never grow up. But seriously, I lived in IL until five years ago, so I know what salt can do to a car. If you wash it once a week it should be good to go. I remember my grumpy old grandfather always washed his at least once a week and he never had rust. But I believe he could have scared even the elements away from his car! Gary thanks for the welcome!

From: Gerry in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 01 February 1998 at 17:54

Actually, MGs with their synchromesh gearboxes are probably the easiest stick to teach a person how to drive, but.....
I have a buddy ho washes his daily driver everyday. I was my B (which is white) three to four times a week in the summer. Sometimes more depending on the amount of bug goop on it.
--G

From: ETD on 01 February 1998 at 18:20

I should probably wash my car more then I really do, but time is definately at a premium here. (still trying to schedule in sleeping this week) But I believe that if someone drive a B, they can pretty much drive any stick. Except for that time when my boss at work loaned me his firebird to go shopping for him, and before I knew it, I was doing 90 mph, and I hadn't even gotten off the highway entrance ramp!! Now on to my original question... Why do we have this strange affliction to MG's?? What is it that makes this car so special to us?? I'm only 18, and my 77B is older then I am, yet the first time I saw pictures of my fathers MGA from when he was 18, I fell in love with it, and I knew from that point on, that an MG would be my daily driver for the rest of my life. Now on my second B I know that the road ahead may at times be tough, but as soon as I get my V8 in my car, I know I will have a car unparalled by anything that ever has, or ever will come out of a car factory. Where did this love come from? Is it genetic? Or are we as owners, and slaves of our MG's, truly the worlds greatest car afficiandos?

ETD

From: Phil "Don't fear the reaper" Curnow, England... on 02 February 1998 at 9:15

Don't fear the reaper!!! But I'll keep my actual location a secret. Did you know that only Wizards and Cats can see him?

Little does he know that I'm THAT black MGB Driver...

-"Mr President, We've big problems with Rwanda"
-"Rwanda? Rwanda! I never touched her"

For all those Brits who know what Football actually is, (it would take and American to invent a game involving the throwing, catching and carrying of the ball, then call it Footbal) did you see that Chelsea pulled off two players at half-time.

I want to know what Bill thinksbaout Jon Bon Jovi's little ecapade, Midnight in Chelsea...

Phil

PS Rain-X, that the same as Rain Wizard that we get in this country? If so I advise its use, wonderful stuff.

From: Grim Reaper II, hoverin' over the White House on 02 February 1998 at 11:57

Shoot! Wouldncha know it? Turns out the Twilight Zone server is also by Lucas - hence my lack of response. Anyway, gotta go - there's a gnashing of teeth and wailing going on in the building below me.... still trying to get those north ants out of ma pants...

From: Gerry in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 02 February 1998 at 13:10

Hey ETD, I wouldn't call it an obsession at all--especially you coming from Detroit' cars are a significant part of our culture--actually cars, tv and radio have probably had the greatest cultural impact on human beings in the last several centuries (with perhaps the exception of the telephone).

As for owners of MGs being more obsessive than others. Ever see anybody with a Shelby Tiger or a Cobra or vintage Corvettes? For us, it's MGs. But really, it's the relationship we forge with our cars--not just what we do in them but what we do to them--that helps create and nurture the obsession....My ex-girlfriend used to participate in it, and whoever my next one ends up being will participate in it too (I hope) because it will give her insight into me, just as participating in her obsessions will give me insights into her.....

Wash that car!

--Gerry

From: Paul Kile, Fair Oaks, CA on 02 February 1998 at 14:48

No, I don't think MG enthusiasm is genetic - my father can appreciate my MGs, but he has never owned one. The closest thing was his only import, a 1972 Mercedes 280SE that he owned for 23 years, and still regrets selling.

My MG enthusiasm began with an MG 1100 sedan that I bought for ONE dollar from an ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend. This ratty old car struck a chord with me, and became the first car I REALLY enjoyed driving. I guess if the car had been a Triumph Herald, things would have been terribly different, and I would be driving a TR8 today instead of a B-GT V-8!

Cheers, PK

From: Darren, Northants on 02 February 1998 at 15:06

Geez, maybe the MG 1100's are good for something then, if it stopped you having a TR8....

From: Stefanie, Arkansas on 02 February 1998 at 15:51

I understand Kathy's reluctance to let anyone drive her B. The folks who let me drive one of their B's are old friends who know that I would never hurt one of their "babies". They also know the person who now owns Poptop and are watching him closely!!!! They give me frequent updates on her condition. And, when I drive one of their cars, they always get back a clean car with a full tank of gas. I went through 2 tanks of gas Saturday morning/afternoon and have the sunburn and "MG hair" to prove it! It was such a wonderful day. And I waved at EVERYBODY!!!!! Including the Grim Reaper, but he didn't see me! (The brimstone made for a great barbecue).

As for driving a B in the winter, I washed mine twice a week in the winter even though they don't salt roads around here. In the summer she was washed every morning at 6:30 and waxed every two weeks. Obsessive/compulsive???? Probably. But you can't take too much care of a B!

Just a thought: Shouldn't the GR be driving a spitFIRE?????

From: Grim Reaper II, Twilight Zone on 02 February 1998 at 16:08

Spitfire? SpitFIRE? SPITFIRE? S-P-I-T-F-I-R-E??

Washurmouthoutwoman! When I'm out reapin' only an MG will do. Keep wavin' cos it MIGHT BE ME.

From: Paul Hunt, Solihull UK on 03 February 1998 at 15:20

"Egg on a shovel". A couple of generations ago it was not uncommon for manual labourers, particularly those that dug holes in the gound, to find themselves far from any habitation at meal times so they cooked their own meals over an open fire at the side of the road. As they did not want to lug pots and pans around (just a kettle for the inevitable 'brew') they used their shovels to cook their bacon and eggs on over the fire. It takes a great deal of skill to keep the egg on the shovel while it is cooking, it can slip from one side to the other (and over the edge!) in a trice. Incidentally, these workmen took a great deal of pride in and care of their shovels, something like a Samurai and his sword, and probably just as lethal on a Friday night.

My wife's father used to tell me about his father who used to erect telphone poles. The forman had a glass eye, and when they were in the pub after work and the foreman needed to go 'out the back' he would drop his glass eye in his pint glass and say 'Keep an eye on that while I'm gone". On another occasion the crew had just finished putting up a huge pole when the foreman gave an anguished cry and said "I can't find my eye, it must be at the bottom of the hole!". He made them dig the pole up again whereupon he said 'Oh, here it is, it was in my pocket all the time'. These blokes used to push all their tools and supplies round on a handcart, leaving the depot on a Monday and not getting back home till Friday night.

For Paul Kile, I learned to drive on a Vitesse, so maybe you didn't have such a lucky escape after all. Passed the test in an 1100, though.

PaulH.

From: Gerry in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 03 February 1998 at 20:23

Paul H, that story of your father-in-law's father reminds me of a story George Shearing told of being in an all blind or visually impaired big band, and having the bass player lose one his glass eyes right before a gig. The curtain rises, and there are fifteen blind guys on their hands and knees searching for a glassy eye....

just an aside


By the way, everybody, if we can keep this up for five days this thread will have been unraveling for a month!

From: Stefanie, Arkansas on 03 February 1998 at 22:17

Guy in Memphis has a glass eye that looks like a cat's eye: gold iris w/vertical pupil. Eerie. He also has several others that he uses for different occasions, including one with a diamond chip in place of the pupil, and one with his university's mascot. Money to burn?????

Now, who would have thought that the horizon thread would have ever gone to glass eyes as a subject? No, I don't know if the "glass eye dude" drives an MG (but there's my MG tie-in!!!)

From: gerry in grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 04 February 1998 at 13:39

I would imagine that a glass eye would allow you plenty of opportunities for practical jokes....

If you're reading the other threads you'll see I'm thinking of hosting a LBC fall color/ winery tour in Northern MI in September. Anyone have any experience hosting such a rally that has some advice, I'd appreciate it (and anybody interested in driving up--it's great driving territory!)

--G

From: Keith Wilds, Groton CT / k_m_wilds@prodigy.net on 05 February 1998 at 1:20

The local cable TV company carries a channel SpeedVision which this afternoon aired a program "Legands of Motorsport" which featured the history of the MGB. Prominent in this show was a 1972, that's a 1972, MGB with a low soft front bumper (easier on the unwary pedestrian), passive seatbelts, side impact protection and Air Bags, both sides. All this in 1972. Also discussed were the V-8s' (died because the factory could only get 48 engines a week) and the proposed type O 2-Liter fuel injected engine subtype (120+ horses with smog control).

sorry no warning, just stumbled across it.

Keith W

From: Paul Hunt, Solihull UK on 05 February 1998 at 11:58

The car you describe is the MGB SSV and also had head-up display, active suspension and side-impact bars, as well as a horrendous "periscope" rear-view arrangement. I say "is" because the car can still be seen at Gaydon.

PaulH.

From: Peter London on 05 February 1998 at 17:10

What a load of absolute bollocks this thread is. I am affraid that a free expressions of ones views should be limited in this world and when some under educated morons start letting offensive views be aired without consideration for the affects on other people then it is a sad day.

These radical shoot em dead intolerant views are similar to those expressed by the Nazis which went uncontrolled. Stop it now and have consideration for the rest of mankind.

Just one little philosophical point to perhaps be discussed is how far should an individuals freedom be allowed to infringe or affect another individuals freedoms? Who or which is more important the individual or society?

Only logical and reasoned responses please.

Arrogant wanker.

From: Oscar Wildeman, Reading on 05 February 1998 at 17:24

Dear AW, Aside from trivializing the Nazis, producing an incoherent first paragraph, flaunting your poor spelling, and, in general, adopting an offensive tone, what's your point (if any)? Unless I'm mistaken, it's a totalatarian approach to restrict free speech and exalt the group to the denigration of the individual. In any event, whilst I can't imagine what portion(s) of this thread you alluded to, I'd suggest you ignore it in the future, and save your rantings for another forum.

From: Gerry in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 06 February 1998 at 3:48

Peter, can I assume that you are discussing the issue of shooting drunk drivers?
Actually, I thought it was a little extreme, but I'm currently teaching Aristotle's Nichomichean Ethics and he pointed out that in Athenian law people who commited crimes whilet hey were drunk received double the punishment. And they sentenced Socrates to death for philosophizing!

From: Phil Curnow, phil.curnow@bbsrc.ac.uk on 10 February 1998 at 10:42

Its a sad fact that many people colour there opinion of somebody's intelligence by how closely their views match their own...

A sad day indeed when people can't air a view, at least then they have a chance to be shouted down, and shown errors they may not have previously seen. Maybe that would temper there opinion, and they would be a better person for it. Debate makes for good conversation, if peole can do it and see another point of view.

Phil

From: Grim Reaper II, Twilight Zone on 10 February 1998 at 14:26

Repeat after me Phil, thEIR opinion. ThERE is a place (not here).

Their their.

Thought this thread had died, but seems some people never give up.

From: Gery in Grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 11 February 1998 at 5:42

As the resident English prof (and somewhat anal-retentive guy) on this board, I was going ot point out what Grimmy did, but then figured Phil go the their right everywhere else on that posting so I was not going to bother (ditto on a student paper).

Wow, over a month of horizon thread! Killer.

Is there anything else we haven't covered yet? I mean, the olympics are starting!

From: Darren,Northants on 11 February 1998 at 11:23

Actually, democracy is pretty scary when you consider that 'stupid' people have an equal vote to 'intelligent' people. So intelligence shouldn't really come into debating; there's no IQ test required before you form an opinion and cast a democratic vote.

From: Phil Curnow. phil.curnow@bbsrc.ac.uk on 11 February 1998 at 14:47

OK, it's been a tiring week. Ain't a guy allowed one grammactical error or even typo once in a while?

But to be blunt, my thesis went to the binders this week, and not even the Reaper could annoy me...

My girlfriend shares a belief with Darren, that IQ testing should be part of the electoral system. She also believes that bright kids are discriminated against at school. Althought the is a move in this country to label the bright ones as "special needs"... interesting.

Personally, when I was at school I liked being able to do the work twice as quick as anyone else, then skive off to play footie... Although maybe I should have stayed behind after school for extra English lessons...After all my native language is Scouse.

Hmmm... Olympics...
Skiing cancelled, because it was snowing.
No Sh*t, Sherlock...

And Curling introduced to give the Scots something to do.

Did I here that Eddie "The Eagle" Edwards was going to make a comeback this year? But the British Olympic Committee vetoed the idea. That man has bottle. I don't care if he doesn't fly too far, you fly through the air with a pair of 4x2 planks strapped to your feet.

Stil like his footballing namesakes, down the slippery slope until he falls of the bottom.

Heres to another month of transatlantic ramblings!

Phil

From: Stefanie, Arkansas on 11 February 1998 at 15:12

Eddie the Eagle??? I think everybody loved it when he was at the Olympics! I know all of us in my family cheered him on. He's probably the most well-known ski jumper ever. (IMHO)

How much longer can this thread go on???? The Grim Reaper is probably having a conniption over it. I guess that's reason enough to keep it going, huh?

Darren, pardon my ignorance, but what's "Scouse"?????

From: me again on 11 February 1998 at 15:14

OOOOOPPPPPSSSS!

Sorry! Thought that was Darren's comment about "Scouse".

Phil: same question!!!!

From: Phil Curnow on 12 February 1998 at 9:58

Scouse is my Native language...

In England, people from Liverpool are known as Scousers, and we have quite a distinct accent. There are also a lot of words that are taken from Irish and added to the dialect.

Its a joke where I work that nobody understanmds me, because a) the accent can be overwhelming b) I start to make up new swear words as I go along.

Actually when I was in the states most people said that I sounded Irish... until I decided to really take the mick and effect a Southern drawl. Boys Tennessee born and bred swore I was from Georgia!

Still...

If your that interested, want to know why Scosers are called Scousers?

maybe a Brit will have the answer...


Phil

From: Miles Banister, Winchester UK on 12 February 1998 at 11:42

Scouse was apparently once the main diet of Liverpudlians. It is based on the Swedish sailors' dish of lobscows - a mix of vegetables and meat boiled up together - similar to an Irish Stew, and it was probably brought to Liverpool by our own sailors.

From: Phil Curnow on 12 February 1998 at 12:18

And Miles would winm the prize, if there was one...

Scouse is a thick stew, corrupted from the sailors dish. Most of the European contries have a version of it. The Danish call is something like lobskews too, though don't quote the spelling. We ended up with Lobscouse, and the people who ate it, generally dockers etc, got labelled Scousers. My parents no live near Stoke-on-Trent, and they have something similar called Lobbie...

It best made with lamb, really cheap greasy cuts, and anything else you can lay your hands on!

Everyones Gran in Liverpool makes the finest Scouse in the entire world, in their opinion at least! Mine included actually... Hers is really good with bread and loads of pickled red cabbage... but didn't sailors eat it with biscuits, the really hard long life jobs they carried on ships?

Now I really ought to put an MG connection in...

After freezing outside working on the B, I'd really like to go back to my Gran's place for a big pan of Scouse to warm me through again and fuel me up for the next time. Phew! got on in.

Are we going to go for two hundred or contiue the splinter thread above and take an aggregate score?

Phil, Scouser in-exile, Hertfordshire.

From: Paul Hunt, Solihull UK on 12 February 1998 at 12:42

Not quite as luxurious as the Midlands clanger, then, which was a suet roll with meat at one end and jam at the other. Main and pud in a single package.

PaulH.

From: Mark J Michalak, Kalamazoo on 12 February 1998 at 17:57

I completely disagree with the idea of requiring an IQ test before a person can vote, have children, drive a car, etc. Good idea, let's restrict our powers of freedom even more than they already are. Stupid people are citizens, too.

Keep in mind that when Binet developed the intelligence tests they were designed to predict a child's learning capacity and provide an idea of any special needs they may have in school. There were three cardinal principles: the test should only be administered to school children, they should never be used to "rate" people, and I forget the third one. Any other uses violates the ethics under which these tests were designed.

This doesn't even cover the fact that IQ (Intelligence Quotient) isn't even a tangible thing. It's a concept. An IQ has nothing to do with a person's capacity to make rational decisions. Retarded people can still understand things like ethics, laws, etc. Should retarded people not be allowed to vote? Smart people do dumb things all the time. Some of the worst criminals in history were criminal geniuses.

Hmmm....Relevance to MGs....uh...the PO of my car should have taken an IQ test before allowing the local mechanic to butcher the wiring harness and other parts of my car that I wish I wouldn't have to deal with.

Mark
'72 roadster

From: trev sheffield on 12 February 1998 at 19:18

Wow, I am a student and life long dreamer of owning an MGB I made my dream come true two months ago and now have a '66 GT version. I did not know there (or is it their?) a bunch of totally sads out there. To peter (London) the answer to the philosophical dilemma is essentally Kantian v Utalitarian perspectives. To the rest of the world, a scouser is 'normally' someone who can speak long and loud about very little (link to the existentialist argument of IQ does it exist? how to measure it? and can scousers possibly be interested in the unattainable).

Stephanie I think you have the answer to the rain problem - just drive!

As for the earlier part of the thread, don't earn, don't spend, don't pay taxes (what is road tax I've forgotten already).

More to come but I am off now to try and find the Grim Reaper a more meaningful profession.

From: gerry in grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 13 February 1998 at 4:39

No offense to my friends on the eastern side of the pond, but reading your discussion of scouse stew made me glad that the colonists won the rebellion--your diet always frightens me (and no, I am not a fast food junkie!).

As for IQ tests, voting,etc. The fact remains that the idea of quality public education in order to create an informed and intelligent population to vote is the cornerstone for a democracy. there were two things democratic theories of public education could not foresee:

1. The population explosion that maxed out classes to 35-40 students preventing any real education to be done, by allowing problem students to overpower a teacher's control of the classroom. By returning class sizes to a manageable figure (and let's not forget that while we've been enlarging class sizes we have been expecting our teachers to parent, nurture, and babysit our kids) we allow teachers to contain discipline problems better, by forcing students to be more self aware. This might help us stop addicting a lot of kids who don't need to be on ritalin to ritalin.

2. Television which focuses attention away from thinking and toward education. In capitalist society, entertainment of the masses is always more popular and more lucrative than education.....

As for what this has to do with mgs--sure beats the hell out of me, but we all drive them or have driven them before, right?

--G

From: Stefanie, Arkansas on 13 February 1998 at 14:18

YIKES!!!! My great-great-grandparents were from Liverpool. Am I part Scouser???? Does that mean I sound like I'm from Georgia????

Mr. Berger gave the definition of "conniption" but around here we have several other terms that mean the same thing: "fit with a hole in it", "having a cow (or kittens)", etc. Don't know the origin of these sayings. Probably more, but it's still early here and I haven't had enough coffee to get my heart started, much less my brain! (And yes, I have had several IQ tests and I know that my brain does exist and should function quite well, but....)

From: gerry in grayling, lafeming@kirtland.cc.mi.us on 15 February 1998 at 13:50

Stefanie, you definitely do not sound like you come from Georgia--your accent isn't as pretentious as a Georgians (but I'll be in Georgia in May and will call you after that just to make sure).

As for "having a cow" the creator of the Simpson, Matt Groenig (it is one of Bart's fave sayings) once said he thought it was from the idea of giving birth to a cow and the sort of pain, anguish, frustration that would go with it....

Ouch!